This post was in response to a post on a Christian forum. There are three parts to this topic since there is alot to read. The post begins with a quote from the original topic:

There is much evidence that Paul did see way beyond John. For instance, in Revelation there are still kings reigning, and Christ is still reigning along with His followers. There are still sovereignties and powers in force throughout the book of revelation. So John did not see the day when all sovereignty, authority and power would be done away. Paul did. If you will look at 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 Paul saw the day when all of these would be done away. He sees the day when “He should be nullifying all sovereignty, authority and power” (vs.24)
Paul sees the day when Christ will quit reigning (vs.25).
Paul sees the day when death (all death which includes the second death) will be abolished (vs.26). Please remember that death will be abolished **after** all the sovereignties, authorities and powers in Revelation have been nullified. Within the book of Revelation, death is still operational as are the afore mentioned powers.

And here is my reply:

Universalists say:

  • All people will be saved whether they hear the gospel or not
  • Sooner or later, all will participate in salvation – scriptures often quoted include John 3:17 and 2 Cor 5:19
  • Division is not between saved and unsaved but between those who know they are saved and those who do not yet know they are saved
  • Task is to inform people that they are saved

Non Universalists say:

  • Not all will be saved. Salvation is a gift of God that comes because of grace through faith leading to believe that Jesus is Lord and repentance resulting in forgiveness of sin John 8:24, Matt 10:38
  • Only those who call on the name of the Lord shall be saved Acts 2:21, Romans 10:13, Joel 2:32
  • There is division between saved and unsaved 2 Corinthians 6:14, John 8:44, Acts 13:10
  • The task is to preach the good news that Jesus made the way to the Father through repentance, faith and belief, there is no other way except through Jesus. Mark 1:38, Acts 17:30, Luke 13:5

Ok, now onto some points from the post:

Paul seeing beyond the things that John Saw?

Scriptures used:

Col 1:25 (used to say Paul was the ultimate one to complete the word of God)
1 Corinthians 15:24-28 (used to support “. There are still sovereignties and powers in force throughout the book of revelation. So John did not see the day when all sovereignty, authority and power would be done away. Paul did“)

So, the claim is that John did not see beyond the second death therefore could not know that salvation would come to those after they die and experience the second death?

The second death is in Rev 20:15.. however, there are 2 more chapters after Rev 20. Rev 21 and 22 talk about The New Jerusalem, The New Heaven and the New Earth and The River of Life… all these happen after the second death and there is no mention of anyone being redeemed AFTER the second death.. the only other time we read about the second death is in Rev 21:8 (will post from vs 5)

Re 21:5–8, 5 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” 6 And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. 7 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.

So we can see, John DID see beyond the tribulation and the second death and DID see all things made new AFTER everything was submitted under the Lords feet, so to try to argue that Paul saw further than John did, holds no weight, because John DID see the new Jerusalem…so to me, this fails to prove that Paul was talking beyond the second death.

(I’ll end this as the first part, otherwise it will just become too lengthy)

Go to part 2 on Universalism